Working on xpub

Much is going on in the Coko world at the moment and a lot of news coming out soon about various collaborations. Much of the attention has been around xpub, the journal system we have been working on built on top of PubSweet.

PubSweet is, of course, a component based system so you can ‘roll your own’ journal or book platform from existing components. We are making a lot of components for both Editoria and xpub and publishing them for reuse with an open source (MIT) license.

Some of the components we are generating for xpub are coming out of the work we are doing with Collabra, the UCP Psychology Journal. Today the Managing Editor, Dan Morgan, and I met for another session working out the logic of the components and how they fit together.


We started by working through the flow from the perspectives of each of the major stakeholders – Managing Editor, Senior Editor, Handling Editor, Author, Reviewer. We worked out what they each needed to see on the dashboard and then went through their workflow and what they needed from each component.

List of what each actor sees on their dashboard
List of what each actor sees on their dashboard
Mapping out the flow across components.
Mapping out the flow across components.
Sketches of components
Sketches of components

We then took each of these small mappings and transferred them to larger pieces of paper. Drawing the interfaces in basic form.

Drawing out the components in detail
Drawing out the components in detail

Each of the diagrams are detailed below.






We had already worked out this structure. Today was about running through the logic from each actor’s point of view. Good news is, the logic held up and validated the architecture. Good news! So, what you see in these pics is more or less what we will build. It is a thin horizontal slice that covers the complete lifecycle of a manuscript going through the Collabra process. We’ll build it and test it, and then layer on additional functionality.

Next I’ll recreate these in digital graphics and add a page of bullet points for explanation. We will then meet with the Coko team and talk it through and start building! It’s a good way to design systems, way better than endless months gathering pages and pages of product requirements. It’s a lightweight and fun process. Software is a conversation after all!

Towards Web-based Word Processors p3

The past two posts I wrote on this topic looked at defining the difference between a text editor and a word processor. The posts in this series represent me ‘thinking out loud’ about what word processing needs to evolve into in the age of the web. So far, in my opinion we haven’t seen an evolution from the desktop given that Google Docs, as the premier example, looks and thinks pretty much like MS Word.

For this post I’m going to look at the first obvious visual differentiator between a text editor and a word processor. You notice this immediately when you open a word processor document, and you are skilled at manipulating its characteristics, but you might not think of it as a ‘feature’ as it is so present to almost be invisible – I’m talking about pagination. The first thing you notice when you open an existing document or start a new one is pagination, the boundaried space that makes your digital interface look like a piece of paper. Its not the sort of thing we think of when we think about a ‘feature’ but it is probably the strongest differentiating characteristic that separates the two categories of software.


Why do we need pagination in a word processor? What purpose does it serve?

There are a number of purposes. Picking them off one by one:

  1. navigation. We can generate navigational schemas if the content is paginated. These can either be inline references to page numbers or it might be in the form of a table of contents.
  2. position in document. Related to (1) above – knowing what page number you are on, and the total number of pages, is an important function of pagination.
  3. boundaried read/write space. In the print world it has long been considered a best practice to have between 45-75 characters per line (commonly abbreviated as CPL). Various arguments have been made that this number is optimum for speed of reading and comprehension (although I haven’t found any research about this, if you know of any please let me know!). Robert Bringhurst, the author of The Elements of Typographic Style (a goto for many book designers), goes even further to suggest the ideal number of characters for optimum legibility is 66. That is pretty specific. As it happens writing environments have always been around this range. Typewriters, for example, were generally around 80-90 CPL, teletype around 70-72 CPL, and this WordPress editor in which I am writing this has 72 CPL. Bounded spaces in Word Processors generally limit the CPL to around the same amount. Google docs is somewhere around 70-80 CPL, and LibreOffice is around 80. The area of 70-80 seems to be quite standard for Word Processors but laptops and larger screens can easily accommodate hundreds of characters per line so we need a bounded space to limit the CPL. Pages are a handy, and familiar, way to boundary the text area to limit CPL.
  4. ‘how much’ metrics. Word count is one indicator of how long a work is, but page count is often used both formally (ie. funding applications or job applications require a fixed number of pages) and intuitively by the writer to get a sense of how long their work is as they create it. Academics, in particular, often think of a works length in terms of page count.
  5. expected ‘look’. Placement of headers and footers, page numbers etc are added to a document to make it conform to an expected look and feel. A letter of application for a job, for example, needs these elements as they are generally considered to add an air of formality to the document. This is obviously inherited from the age of paper but interestingly we still do this regardless of whether the content is printed, distributed as a word processor file, or rendered to paginated PDF.
  6. design canvas. Interestingly, word processors are used as design environments. Think of the times you have played with fonts, tried to get the right spacing between a heading and the following paragraphs, added images and tweaked with the text flow to make the image sit well in the page etc. A boundaried ‘page’ presents a known canvas within which we can apply our implicit document design skills honed over many years of using word processors.
  7. to print, or the possibility of print. There always is the possibility that the documents we create will be printed. If not by us, then those we share the documents with. We implicitly understand that if it looks fine on the screen then anyone printing it ‘sometime later’ will get a tidy outcome. In many cases we don’t think about it much, it’s more of an implicit assumption that covers us ‘just in case’ it is printed.

So, what to make of this. First, pagination is pretty essential to how many people use a Word Processor. It’s hard to think we can do without it. We might be able to achieve some of the above without a page paradigm. We could probably reasonably easily overcome the first 4 issues above – for example, we could provide word counts + ‘approximate page count’ indicators to give an idea of ‘how much’ content there is, provide a hierarchal navigation view of headings instead of page numbers for navigating around a document and as a ‘table of contents’ as Google Docs and eLife Lens (based on does.

eLife Lens. Table of Contents on right
eLife Lens. Table of Contents on right

In addition, there are a number of ways to indicate the reading position in a document that do not require page numbers – check out this example (thanks to Julien Taquet for this tip), and it is also possible to limit the CPL without providing page boundaries in the design as Wax Editor does.

Wax Editor

However…the show stoppers really are the last 3 from the list above (to summarise again) –

  1. expected look – many documents are expected to have page-based design elements regardless of whether we actually print them
  2. design canvas – we know how (from years of banging around on ugly Word Processors) how to design documents using Word Processors, and
  3. to print, or the possibility of print – we never know when something might be printed so knowing it looks ok on a ‘virtual page’ is a nice guarantee that it will look fine if printed.

Are we stuck with pagination?

It is difficult to argue that we could easily, or completely, throw away the page based paradigm based on these three items. So…does that mean Word Processors will be forever tied to the rather ugly page that you see floating like an existentially blank canvas every time you start a new document? Will web-based word processors forever be stuck in this paper paradigm?

My argument is no. We don’t need the page. Or at least, right now, in many use cases we can throw it away. The examples I used above provided clear cases where we need to directly correlate what you see when you create a document to the final result – whether for screen-based display, or print. But not every use case is like this. What is one of the biggest situations where you do not require a strict co-relation like this? Publishing.

I think I might hear you thinking ‘huh’? Afterall, if there is one industry that actually does require pagination it is the publishing industry (thinking in terms of the book and journal publishing sector for now, excluding newspapers, magazines etc).

That is true. However, the publishing industry doesn’t distribute to their readers a journal article as an MS Word file, or a book as a directory of MS Word files. They distribute unpaginated (usually) HTML files on the web, paginated PDF, EPUB files with various approaches to pagination, or paper. They generate these files by sending their source files (often MS Word) to an external vendor or in-house designer, who imports them into any number of design environments and converts this into the required formats.

Pagination comes ‘at the end of the line’ so to speak. Hence, unlike the typical home or office environment, there is no 1:1 correlation between what you see in word processors and what is finally distributed. So the needs of a word processor for a general user might be different to the needs of publisher. That, in itself, is pretty interesting. What if we could imagine specific word processors for specific use cases….

However, you will notice that word processors take a one-size-fits-all approach. We don’t have one word processor for book authors, one for publishers, one for lawyers (etc etc etc)…that is not to say we don’t need to differentiate these use cases and look at the specific needs of each. Interestingly, developing web based environments takes a lot less work that developing desktop applications and things have moved on since MS Word first hit the shelves. The web gives us substantially more room for modularity and customisation. With web-based word processors, every feature can be a configurable option. Don’t want or need track changes? That’s ok… remove it… Need a Diacritics interface? Easy… add it. Don’t want pagination? Remove it.

The point is, we can start building web based word processors that are highly customisable and can be configured to meet individual use cases. We haven’t seen that so far in word processing, Google Docs has also chosen a one size fits all – the only real difference here between GDocs and MS Word is that their ‘all’ is a smaller group. But that doesn’t mean we can’t do it if it makes sense. Technically it is very feasible and, as it happens, it’s the approach we are taking with the Wax Editor.

So, let’s imagine we have our own word processor made specifically for publishers. Do we need pagination? What role does it play in publisher workflows?

It is true that relative to the total number of publishers out there I’ve seen inside a small % of publishers’ workflows. However, interestingly, with each new publisher I work with I am seeing, more or less, the same workflows and from what I have seen so far, MS Word files are used widely to support a kind of early page-prep workflow. Publishers check and improve the content of course, but they also make sure certain elements are in place that will affect the final design. They check, for example, if all paragraphs are correctly indented. They check if images are in the right place, they check if headings are marked correctly and that no levels have been jumped etc. These all affect the final paginated outcomes, but none of this requires working within, or manipulating, pagination as it appears in the word processor. Checking the results of pagination (including page numbers, running heads, widows and orphans etc) comes when publishers do their page proofs ie. when they check the PDF before print or distribution (sadly, many publishers don’t check EPUB very thoroughly but just accept that it ‘is what it is’). Publishers don’t currently check the results of pagination, as it will appear in their final distributable form, in the word processor. So pagination in the word processor, at least on this point, is a little redundant.

So… my point is, if we get down to it, pagination features in a word processor are not required when you are working inside a publisher to prepare a document for publishing. We could instead use an unpaginated environment with a navigation based on document structure (not pages), word count as a metric for how much content there is, and simple constraints on CPL that do not look like a boxed, bounded, page.

But…what about the need to print on your office or home printer? Interestingly, I think this gets to the crux of the matter. Unbounded, flowable text, in a word processor does not mean you can’t print. It only means what you see in the word processor won’t have a one-to-one co-relation, with regard to pagination, to what is printed. But the big question is – is this acceptable to publishing staff? Can we get them to let go of thinking, a product of many years of legacy word processing user experience design, that the pagination in the browser ‘must’ correlate to the pagination that comes out of their home or office printer. My experience designing such systems alongside publishing staff leads me to believe his is possible. In fact, the University of California staff designed the Editoria system which features the Wax Editor which displays content sans pagination. The challenge is – it is up to us to show them that throwing pagination out works in their favour.

Before I go on to why throwing out pagination can be a convincing argument, I want to indulge in a rather lengthy aside and state that throwing out pagination is not the same as ‘not printing’. The results of printing from an ‘unpaginated’ form in a web-based word processor can be beautiful and a more consistent experience than printing off ‘any old’ word file. This is because we can use CSS print styles to make beautiful looking results that come out of your home printer. The point is only that the pagination will not correlate to what you see in the word processor. But you can have other things – for example, you could render pages for printing at any time that look like your final output. Quite probably this statement is news, or confusing, to you. It needs extensive explanation. But the idea, in basic form, is that content in HTML based word processors can be shaped by CSS into paginated form in the browser. This process allows you to automatically format the content into book or article form including running heads, page numbers, widow and orphan control, multiple columns (if desired) while also generating the table of contents and even indexes. This can be achieved, for example, by platforms that leverage tools like Vivliostyle. I’ll get to this in subsequent posts, maybe even the next one (in the meantime, you may wish to read this). For now, I want to leave this issue to the side but make the simple point that content that is not bounded by a page in the word processor can still be printed and, further, the results can be more beautiful and consistent than what you get by printing from Google Docs or MS Word today. However, the process of printing will feel slightly different because ‘how you print’ will be to first render a view that is conformant with your printer and then print. It’s not much different to how it is done now because this is how print-preview works in word processors today. When we print, we commonly choose the page format at print time, although most of the time we leave it at its defaults because we know that what we have seen in the word processor is the same as what will come out of the printer. ‘The new way’ would mean you will need to pay more attention to the second step – checking the formating in print preview before printing. Which is why I emphasise that the process will feel slightly different, the actual change in behaviour is minimal, if anything at all. But it would be a mistake to conflate user experience with user behaviour. The experience of the software is nothing to be brushed lightly aside, it can be a very strong impediment to new ways of working. So how things feel need to be taken into account. Which is why I think, ultimately, we will need other arguments to help many (not all) ‘get across the line’.

Which brings us back to the question – what is the advantage of not having pagination? If we can do away with it we have far more options for making beautiful experiences. The bounded page that all word processors commonly present is, in my opinion, hideous. It constrains how you construct a user interface, how people feel about that interface, and how people work. If we can free ourselves from it I think we open the door for much better experiences and innovations on what a word processor can do and be which also means, in the publishing industry, we can start innovating around word processor workflow.

Additionally, removing pagination from the word processor in publishing workflows is better aligned with how publishing works. Publishing formats do not share the same pagination. An EPUB page is not going to be the same page as the content displayed on the net, in a Kindle, in a PDF, or in a book. Might as well let that one go. If we need pagination at all, it needs to look like the final output and we need to get it earlier in the workflow than what currently occurs. Currently, publishers only see this after the content has been through their workflow and gets ingested and output to various formats by a designer, production staff, or external vendor. However…. HTML based word processors that leverage tools like Vivliostyle (mentioned above) enable the content to be paginated to all these formats on the fly. That means you can have ‘page proofs’ anytime you want in the process. So, letting go of pagination in the word processor, coupled with the ability to create these various paginated forms at any time, is an advantage to publishers. Publishers don’t need to wait for page proofs from a designer before they can tweak elements in the content (eg placement of images) to make the pages flow better in the final output. They can render, check, and tweak at any moment. From this point of view seeing one kind of pagination in the browser, especially one that conforms to a generic printed page coming out of the office printer, as it does now, is counter intuitive. But, I don’t expect many publishing staff to accept this by argument alone. We have to first get most people to experience this, and other benefits of a pagination free experience in a word processor, before they can start moving the way they work forward.

My conclusions? Well, I think it will be a while before we can convince the general user to drop pagination. But web based web processors allow us to build much more customisable experiences and avoid the ‘one size fits all’ approach. We can build to meet publishers’ specific needs and it is because of this that I believe we can produce software that will convince publishers to make the conversion sooner. This is because we can make the experience for them better if we drop pagination. The pages, which they look at for hours on end, can be cleaner, easier to read, and less tiring over long periods of time. We can also start using space more effectively by removing borders around pages (with their attendant inner and outer margins). And lastly, I think it is important to remove pagination from word processors for publishing workflows because it helps disambiguate what you see in the word processor from the final, designed and paginated, results. This latter point has positive knock-on effects that I will come to in other posts. Couple all this with the ability to ‘paginate on the fly’ (so to speak) at print time (for domestic/office printers) or to generate ‘page proofs’ of many target formats, and we have a winner.

More thoughts coming in later posts!

Atoms, Molecules, Patterns

I’ve just had a rather interesting dive into the world of components. At Coko we are breaking down the PubSweet components, essentially browser views, into smaller ‘sub-components’. So we looked at the language, best practices, and tools in this arena.

The outcomes are pretty simple but also interesting. We decided to use React-Styleguidist for the management of these sub-components.

But the discussion around what should constitute a component/pattern is in itself interesting. There is some interesting theory around it, probably the most compelling document I found was the Atomic Design article/thesis by Brad Frost. It is a compelling language / framework for understanding and discussing the creation and use of reusable components.

There are two questions that seem fundamental to a sub-components (patterns) approach:

  1. at what level do you describe something as a (singular) ‘component’?
  2. when should something become a component?

The first is very much the topic of the Atomic Design book linked to above. Brad Frost uses the metaphor of chemistry to describe the basic component types, the first being an atom. An atom is the most basic element that you will find on a web interface (his language is very much built around web interfaces and HTML elements).

atoms include basic HTML elements like form labels, inputs, buttons, and others that can’t be broken down any further without ceasing to be functional.

So, a button could be a component, and if so it would be the most basic type – an atom. That makes intuitive sense to me and its an interesting way to talk about things. We all know atoms are the most basic form of matter, so using the term to describe the most fundamental form of UI element is an easy translation. It is also a nice language to adopt because in the world of atomic theory atoms exist in isolation but they also exist in clusters and there is a language for that too. Two or more atoms that exist together form a molecule.

molecules are relatively simple groups of UI elements functioning together as a unit. For example, a form label, search input, and button can join together to create a search form molecule.

That also translates pretty easily. There are other layers after this. The ‘next layer up’ (so to speak) Brad Frost calls an ‘organism’:

Organisms are relatively complex UI components composed of groups of molecules and/or atoms and/or other organisms. These organisms form distinct sections of an interface.

I can almost buy the ‘organism’ terminology but not quite. I would prefer something like ‘compound’. This makes more intuitive sense to me. As the Free Dictionary states:

Consisting of two or more substances, ingredients, elements, or parts.

So, I would prefer – Atoms, Molecules, and Compounds. I’m not going to nit pick Brad Frosts essays, it’s a brilliant piece of work. I guess I’m just pondering about the consistency and intuitiveness of his chosen lexicon. Atoms and molecules work for me, compound feels easier than organism…anyways, I got into the weeds,

The point is, each of these is a component but this gives us the language to talk about different types of components – which is very important.

Incidentally, Brad Frost defines two more layers – Templates, and Pages. I’m still pondering these. I’m, for now, mostly interested in atoms, molecules and organisms/compounds.

So, this is nice. I felt this framework made immediate sense when I first came across the idea (recommended by Paul Shannon from eLife) and, further, I felt the stress disappear caused by the struggle of talking about ‘different types of components’ without being able to name them.

Which leads me to the second question I asked above – when does something become a component. In other words, when do you spend the time to make the component a component, whether it would be an atom, molecule or compound component. For this, I am very grateful for an insightful and brief chat I had with Brian Muenzenmeyer who maintains the node version of PatternLab (Brad Frost is also part of the PatternLab team).

Brian made this very nice point:

I recall a friend explaining to me to start worrying about making something a pattern at all only after you use it three times. First time, it’s a one off. second time, you have a convenient template to copy/paste from. third time, it becomes a maintainability issue

It is a very salient point as it also points out, implicitly, that patterns are emergent and it doesn’t pay to be over zealous when breaking something down into an individual component/pattern. I think that is smart. Having said that, we possibly occupy a smaller % of software spectrum where re-use is more fundamental to our work than, say, someone building a company website. This is because we are building for reuse. Coko produces systems so that others can inherent or build their own publishing platforms. So, to support the later (build your own publishing platform) I think it is important for us to build reusable components from the get go to make it easier for developers to roll their own platform ie. we should create reusable components whenever possible as a matter of course.

Lastly, while PatternLab has Brad Frost’s logic built into it, there is no need to use PatternLab to make atoms, molecules and compound ‘stores’ for components. These can be established in the naming and categorization by convention in other tools eg React-Stylguidist (our choice of tool). This is not to say PatternLab is a bad tool, it is a great tool, but if you subscribe to Brad Frost’s ideas, or some version of them, you don’t need PattenLab to achieve this. You can choose the tool you want based on other requirements.

Anyways…that is my thinking on it so far. Pretty interesting topic. I am grateful for the language and clarity that Brad Frost provides and a few sage words on when to think about making something into a component from Brian Muenzenmeyer. Still pondering all this. It’s a very interesting area.

Yep, Its a ‘requirements’ doc

I’ve attached images of the .odt file (also attached) that shows the next stage of the Collabra ‘requirements’ process. I shouldn’t really call it requirements, I’m sorta being a little cheeky. 6 brief pages. A brief brief. This is all software development needs. Just images that people understand and a bit of clarifying detail in the text. As I write this I imagine many software people rolling their eyes and dismissing me as a ‘not serious’ software chap. They might be right – I’m not terribly serious – but this process turns out some pretty great software! And, importantly, little overhead makes the process fast and fun.

I made this doc out of the scribbles I posted, and then Alf Eaton and Julien Taquet and I had a 30 min remote call so we are all clear on it. Now Julien will make mocks to replace the horrible scribbles I made and we will update the docs when these are ready. Dev can start now or when the mocks are ready (mocks will take a day or two).






What you see here are 3 basic components for the Journal – we are working only with the author and reviewer roles now as the editor and admin views will be this, plus a whole lot more. We are designing these components initially as ‘thin’ as possible so we can plug them together and start getting a sense of the workflow. It just might be my current passion is surfing so I keep thinking of this process like shaping a surf board…honing it down to the right shape, layer by later. We can layer on more later (and, importantly, remove stuff) and change stuff as required. However, for now, this takes care of the submission process and next week Dan Morgan and I meet to work out the logic of the review and decision process.

And here is the .odt file: collabra-ctm1-1

Bassel Safadi

4am in San Francisco, a quiet street outside. I can’t sleep. The world seems a little mad with hyperbolic talk of fire and fury. So, now I’m awake with a few moments to think about things that don’t get out in the light of day. One of them being what happened to Bassel Safadi.

Bassel was someone I worked with once on a Book Sprint. I didn’t know him, but he is a good friend of friends of mine. I had this fleeting picture of him ‘just being one of the crew’ in the most normal sense. He wasn’t anyone I connected directly with, he was participating remotely in the event. His buddies were in Berlin with me and Bassel was ‘just there’ somewhere in the ether. Present, friendly, friend of friends.

Months later my buddies said he was imprisoned in Syria. It is at this point I paused to learn more about him. Imprisoned in Syria? What? What did he do? It was an event that stuck out angular, jutting, and severe in my otherwise comfortable world. It was then that I learned just how normal Bassel was. He was just this guy. He did some activist stuff in the area of Free Culture, the sort of stuff I work on. And yet he ended up, as I learned last week, being executed.

It just doesn’t seem fair. It’s not fair. It’s sad and stupid and above all, not normal. I feel for his buddies, his family. But most of all there is this dissonant hole in my understanding of the world. What is it doing there? I don’t understand how this can happen. I don’t think I can understand why this happened. It’s just stupid and sad.

Pondering design and reusability

At Coko, we are thinking through design and reuse. IMHO the world of software needs better design – design that is lead by creative inspiration, and not by UX best practices. It is not to say that these things are mutually exclusive, you can have both, but I like design that surprises, that doesn’t look like anything else…. that is beautiful and enticing… Design led by UX best practices tends to come out boring, evenly spaced, clean – like a cubicle. This was one of my frustrations with Booktype after I left the project. Putting design first is also one of the things I love most about Editoria.

So, what happens when you take this approach to software design (I am refraining from using the term ‘UX’ here as this doesn’t quite cut it) and yet there is a need to build for multiple systems at once. Which is the situation we are in. We are rapidly supporting a growing number of platforms built on top of PubSweet (more news of all this coming soon). To make life easier for those wishing to build on top of PubSweet, we have decided to break the pubsweet-components (eg dashboard, bookbuilder, submission screen) down into multiple ‘sub-components’ (eg. submission button, book list, submission questions etc).

But how to do that while upholding a high value for bespoke design?

I am wondering about the tension between custom design and reusable design. Where they touch is the area we are just now starting to operate in.

My initial thoughts, unravelling here as I write this! are that we do two things:

  1. when we design systems, we do only bespoke design
  2. we break the parts down that we think others may use after (1)

In a way, that means we are probably creating more work for ourselves (!) and lessening the work for others… but sometimes that is what community is about…

Still pondering…

Some articles I’m reading on the subject:

  1. (many thanks to Brian Muenzenmeyer who maintains patternlab node for this recommendation)
  2. (thanks to Julien Taquet for the recommendation)
  4. (video)

Leave PDF and JATS as end-of-line formats

Over the last years, I’ve seen a few attempts and ponders about building journal submission processes around end-of-line formats – ie. PDF and JATS. I call them end-of-line formats because these formats are ‘outputs’ from other formats and processes. No one, for example, sits down and authors in JATS or PDF. Most researchers produce their work in MS Word, LaTeX and sometimes HTML and (ugh) markdown…there is also, of course, the R Markdown and similar schools that render to (for example) MS Word for submission purposes.

But it has to be said that no one authors in JATS or PDF. If they do then they are treading a long painful path when there are far simpler and painless ways to get there.

My small plea to the world is to leave these end-of-line formats where they are – at the end of the line. Keep content in flexible containers (file formats) so the works can be altered, reshaped, completely overhauled, fluidly re-flowed… whatever is needed… but don’t make the mistake of trying to either prematurely optimise document structure, or choose a file format that was not designed for authoring as your format of choice for authoring. It just doesn’t make sense. Instead, build systems that enable flexible authoring formats and layer structure on it through the process, then output to all the end of line formats you desire and QA those using the appropriate tools.

For my part, obviously, I believe that format should be HTML. I do see that it will take some time for publishers and researchers to unanimously agree with me 🙂 But I’ve seen enough people come round to the idea over the years that I believe that there is a steady rising of the HTML tide in scholarly publishing that will eventually mean all ships will rise…

coda : Seeing that my post above was not clear  ( I’m not arguing that we need JATS at all except that ‘to segue to the future’ we need to support it. I believe the research world would be better off without both PDF and JATS. My point is, don’t build Manuscript Submission Systems that use JATS or PDF as the primary source file format. Use HTML, and (where necessary and unfortunately) niche formats like LaTeX where you have very little chance of convincing them to use anything else.